Topic: Decisions, decisions...

So, things were going pretty alright for awhile there. I got out of the army, lost 20kg, got me a great programming job, I have significantly more money than the average Israeli 22y/o person, and my hair is growing back nicely.
Then, thanks to the intensive brainwash from my parents, I made the mistake of going back to where I vowed never to return - the bloody Israeli Institute of Technology. For a degree in comp sci, of course. That's beginning to feel like a major mistake.
I have no intention of quitting my job. My cubicle is, by far, one of the best places for me to be. I enjoy most aspects of my job. I have a lot of freedom when it comes to what I do, and how/ when I do it. I learn a lot. I make a lot of money. A bus takes me directly from home to work, and back, every day. There's good food for practically free. The last 2 bits probably sound like an absurd thing to bother thinking about, but the point is, what else could I possibly want?
So why the hell did I decide to start studying and working part time? My parents keep saying I can't be sure I'll work at the same place for the rest of my life. Other hi-tech companies aren't likely to be so willing to hire a programmer without any higher education. If my company decides to fire 500 employees, the ones without the degree are likely to be the first to go, and a degree would significantly enhance my salary. Besides, the average Israeli programmer lasts about 2 years at a given job until he moves on to a completely identical company and gets a 30% higher salary for no reason whatsoever.
So between my job, my studying, and working out, I don't really have any free time. I kind of lost it in the last 2 weeks and started WoWing a lot again, and immediately I have trouble understanding the material and doing the homework and all that. Hell, I wasn't studying hard enough anyway. And I have so few courses this semester, in future semesters I'll probably have to spend 3 times as much time on studying and won't even have time to sleep. I can't really handle my job like this anyway, working only 100 hours a month makes me feel painfully unproductive.

Basically, I see 2 options.
What I should do - cancel my WoW subscription, then devote all my time to studying, working out, and doing productive things like programming or drawing, by that priority order.
What I want to do - quit studying, go back to a full time job, work out without having to worry about equations and matrices and whatever waiting for me at home, and just WoW the rest of the time.

That was mostly a rant, of course. I need to vent, goddamnit.
But the obvious question must be asked: what would you do?

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Re: Decisions, decisions...

Are you seriously asking whether you should study or play wow? Jeez.

Just get the education over with and enjoy some job security and a higher degree of financial freedom for the rest of your life. Use your time off to vent and spazz out. There will still be MMO's in 5 years.

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Re: Decisions, decisions...

I can't say I know much about the job market situation, but if what your parents say about a degree is true (all sounds logical), then I would make it a priority to get a degree. If you have a good job right now, that you enjoy, that's a very rare thing as well - something you don't want to give up. I'd try to cut WoW out (to me, it seems like a large amount of time for relatively little enjoyment - yeah, its nice when you get whatever accomplishment you were going for, but it's just too much time invested. Buy a fast-paced non-MMORPG game, and get immediate satisfaction, if you're looking for something to dump a bit of spare time into - there's no obligation like there is in wow. You miss a day - you haven't "lost" anything.  Don't take more classes. Yeah, you'll take longer to finish your degree - but you'll have less stress building up, and you'll still have the job you enjoy with a moderate amount of time. If possible, you might consider taking less courses (not really sure how many you took).

Basically, your situation right now is building up too much stress for you to comfortably handle. You don't want to cut hours working, so you're left with three mentioned things: WoW, school, and working out. Working out is often a stress relief, not to mention good for health, so we don't want to cut that out. WoW, while moderately enjoyable, is also often stressful. School, while stressful, offers a significant benefit to it's completion - more money and job security later. You have a trade off with more hours at school: more stress, but more money and done with it sooner. Since you're apparently not worried about the more money part very soon (not going to get married, etc), I'd take that down a notch. But WoW doesn't really have all that much going for it - I dunno, you might find it more amusing than I did. That's my take on it, anyway.


I've actually had a similar situation. I worked part-time (very part-time) this semester, with a light load at school. Next semester, I have a heavy load at school, and decided to cut work (I hated my job, though), since I'm lucky enough to have that choice as an option. So next semester I'm looking at a heavy load, plenty of time to run(my working out),  time to socialise (hopefully neutral), and even look for a more enjoyable job if I find I'm able to handle all that well.  I think it's a good idea to have LESS on your plate than you can handle rather than more - so pick the stuff you CAN'T drop later, and add more if you think you can. School isn't something you can modify all that much (though you could drop a course or two if you decide you need to - so that's an option to consider), work is something you want as a constant - I don'tknow how much you have to work out with your boss about hours. But WoW, well,y eah, said this part enough.

Anyway, good luck. Hope you get some good stress relief over winter break

Re: Decisions, decisions...

Originally posted by: Thomas
Are you seriously asking whether you should study or play wow? Jeez.


Yes. Yes I am.
I didn't bother to stress this point because I thought it was fairly obvious and self explanatory: what is the point of living if you have no fun? Living just for work? How is that better than, for example, not living at all? I know I have a tendency to make certain claims that people here find absurd, but, seriously, why the hell would anyone want to live without having fun?
As it happens, WoW is my fun. It's all I have left.

Just get the education over with and enjoy some job security and a higher degree of financial freedom for the rest of your life. Use your time off to vent and spazz out. There will still be MMO's in 5 years.


I can't make that sort of assumption. Working hard for a few weeks/ months in order to attain a well defined goal is one thing. 4-5 years of pure suffering, however, does not seem to be a logical sacrifice for... what, job security? Come on...
As for financial freedom, I already have enough of that. Plenty of adults in Israel who work full-time would envy my part-time salary.

v3x: I don't have many options at school. This semester is quite relaxed, but I'm already feeling it's too much occasionally... due to certain very technical circumstances I'm only taking 1.5 courses at the moment. Next semester I have to take 3 very important courses, and for other very technical reasons I want to take 2 other big courses.
You're pretty right about the stress, too. If I fail calculus one more time, they'll kick me out forever. And for some bloody inexplicable reason, they decided that CS students need to do the most difficult variety of all the math courses. So the situation isn't very encouraging...
(And I do have fun in WoW... a lot of it... even without raiding, which I obviously can't afford to do anymore)

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Re: Decisions, decisions...

Yes you should live your life having fun, I don't think anyone would tell you to live life just to work, but I also don't think anyone should really describe school as "pure suffering for 4-5 years". It seems that your mind is already made up because of how you portray the options in it. WoW and your current job is "Fun, sunshine, lollipops, and baby bunnies" while school and your parents are "pure suffering, brainwashing, and horrible." We're not going to be able to change your mind when you look at the options that way.

I think most people will tell you if you have the opportunity to get a higher education that you should make the sacrifice and do it. Why? For the reasons your parents are telling you, yea, your job is cushy now and you make awesome money and can play WoW. But if/when this job disappears, then what? You don't have a degree which is a big weakness compared to other people competing for jobs in your field and you might not get another cushy job that pays really well and you'll be stuck, wishing you had gotten the degree. What will that cause? Stress, lack of fun, and all the rest.

It's not "living only for work" or "living without fun in your life". It's sacrificing some fun now, for greater fun in the future. When you have more job security, an even better paying job that comes with a degree, and school behind you and not maybe lurking in the distance, you will be able to have more time, get back into the things you thought were fun before, with less stress (meaning more fun seemingly) and so you will be in an even better place.

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Re: Decisions, decisions...

Raptor: I don't think you're being fair. Of course I already have an opinion about WoW being fun and school being not fun. That's just the way it is. I don't think you'll find any CS student in this institute who actually enjoys any of it. This is probably one of the most demanding faculties in the whole country. This place is not fun. Every single person who has seen both this place and any other college/ university says, and I quote: "You just miss the whole being-a-student experience here" (which is usually fun, or so I hear). No, you won't be able to say magic words that will convince me to change my mind by 180 degrees, but, and this may surprise everyone who knows me, I actually listen to things people tell me, and most logical parts slowly make their way into my consciousness and change my future decisions, even if it's not immediately evident.
I might not have a degree when (if) I lose my job, but I'll have several years of practical experience (I learn more every month at work than I would learn in a whole semester at school) and, most likely, good recommendations. Who's to say that potential employees will consider that inferior?
And I just don't see the "greater fun in the future" part. I do not need more money. I'm fairly low-maintenance, just give me a computer and some yogurt and I'm good. I have no intentions of ever having a family (not that I'd have anyone to have it with) so that's not an issue. I'm not stressed about losing my job, I see no reason why it would happen in the foreseeable future. I could argue that working for 4 years in order to have fun later just isn't as good as starting to have fun right now.

And while it does seem that my mind is made, so far I've been studying harder and avoiding WoW in the last 2 days... I'm just having a hard time seeing the logic behind my own actions.

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Re: Decisions, decisions...

Real world experience does teach you more than having a piece of paper saying you passed...but that doesn't always (often?) figure in. The degree is an identifiable thing that an employer can point to and say "See, that means he is worth hiring". Real world experience is much harder to quantify as good or bad. It's not necessarily true that having a degree is better than having real-world experience, but it happens to be the way a lot of the world works. I wasn't trying to say school is fun by the by, I was only trying to point out that it's a sacrifice that probably should be made to have more security in the future. You may not "need" anything else right now, may not be planning on anything else other than the life your living, but in my book, its better to be better prepared for the future so you can coast without worry later rather than coasting now, with the potential for downfall later.

Maybe if you did the school thing, never lost your job, never needed the degree, never needed any other benefit from it down the road you could look back and say "Hah! I knew I was right and never needed it" but in the long-term what did it cost you, some stress for a few years and maybe less time playing video games then.

But maybe if you didn't do the school thing, and then for some unforseeable reason lost your nice job, couldn't find another one because you didn't have a degree, and ended up having to work a job later that didn't allow you this free time to play video games, you'll look back and say, "Damn, if I had sacrificed my leisure there for a couple of years, the past X years of my life would have been a lot easier".

Personally, I would much rather look back and say the first, that I maybe "wasted" a few years of my life to ensure that I had more security and was better prepared for whatever may come than to coast and not be ready, hoping that nothing would change for the worse.

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Re: Decisions, decisions...

Before progressing your WoW char, progress your char IRL.  I hear that your IRL char is going to last longer than your WoW one anyway.

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Re: Decisions, decisions...

Originally posted by: Legal_My_Deagle
Before progressing your WoW char, progress your char IRL.  I hear that your IRL char is going to last longer than your WoW one anyway.


Ah, but progressing my WoW char also progresses my RL char!
[Edit] That's arguable, by the way, as my RL character is more boring than a paladin, and isn't likely to ever learn any interesting new skills (I can stealth nicely, but no frostbolts...) [/Edit]
I don't know about the rest of humanity, but my ultimate goal is happiness, and WoW (well, now it's WoW, later it'll be SC2, and so on) happens to be a major factor. Would you feel differently if I were talking about having a girlfriend instead of playing a video game? (I believe the minimal time consumption is similar in both cases). I don't think it matters exactly what it is that makes me happy, as long as it does make me happy; and if it doesn't I could move on to another game, or start drawing again, or any other activity which I can't possibly have time for while studying + working + working out.

Raptor: I probably agree with you about what I'd rather say in retrospective, but I just have serious problems thinking forward like this. I spent my whole life planning for the future, and not a single plan ever came close to working. Most of it backfired, really. Which is why I no longer believe in the concept of future, life is just a string of moments, and any wasted moment is just that - a wasted moment. If I do look back and see 4 wasted years... that's a lot of time, you know. And considering that my real life just started about a year ago and, err, most of you here remember how depressed I was in the years before that... it just makes me feel worse about voluntarily jumping back into the whole depression thing. It's like... I can be happy, or at least content, but I actually choose not to be. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else here...

Hell, maybe I just need to adjust my attitude towards work. For some reason the prospect of having to quit my job terrifies me, and I work about 25% more than my part-time contract requires and my boss already said he wouldn't mind if I worked only half of that...

War3Pub's Israeli Defence Elf
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You can lead a camel to the water cooler, but you cannot make it drink.

10

Re: Decisions, decisions...

If you're working 25 hours a week and planning on taking, what, 5 courses in one semester - you're not going to have a 'being-a-student' time, anyway. If you absolutely MUST take a killer semester.. see if your job understands that and is willing to let you work even more part-time, and just suffer through it for one semester - unless they're all going to be like that.

Also, um. From what I've heard, WHERE your degree comes from helps with getting your first job more than anything. If you already have a decent job at a reputable company, and will be able to get a good recommendation, you might as well go to an easier college with a 'good' CS dept, and take the less stressful/less expensive degree, because it won't make that much difference. Same with your GPA - don't stress over it too much. Again - this is mostly from what I've heard, so take it with a grain of salt I guess.

11

Re: Decisions, decisions...

If your girlfriend was encouraging you to do something like abandon all hopes of a degree to be with her, then yes, I would encourage an ending of that relationship.

The artist formerly known as Viserys.

Re: Decisions, decisions...

v3x: Funny, but getting my degree anywhere else will cost 2-10 times more tongue This is one thing in Israel that works completely different from the USA... the top universities are the cheap ones, because the government pays them per student, whereas private colleges are just colleges, and any idiot who can't get into a good university can go there, so they can charge a lot of money. And I don't really want another university, because I figured, I'm only doing this so I can write something impressive on my resume, so I might as well get the best degree I can have in this country... does that make sense?

[Edit]
Touche, Vis smile

War3Pub's Israeli Defence Elf
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Re: Decisions, decisions...

With a reference on your resume to already working a programming job and doing it well, I would hope that most companies would not be interested in if you have the paperwork (degree) to prove you can do the job;  because you've already done the job successfully.

But that's in my fantasy world where everyone thinks logically. 

Your parent's are probably right.  Though I understand how much trouble you'd have going back to school for something you're already doing... Hell I wouldn't be able to do it.  I guess, just suck it up and do it. sad

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14

Re: Decisions, decisions...

In September of 2005, I was in the exact same situation as you.  I had dropped out of school in 2004, and got a job.    After having a job for a year earning well over an average salary, one I could live off of reasonably, I went back to school in 2005.  And I had the same choice.   Less work, with school, and WoW in the mix.     

I chose WoW.

It is now almost 2008, and I'm only marginally further in school than I was two whole years ago.   What happened in between?    I failed nearly every course that semester, and RCG made progress in BWL (woohoo.)  in December of 2005, I dropped out of school again.    The results were so devastating to me that I decided it wasn't working.   I was on "warning" status, but that was okay so long as I did fine the next semester.  Instead, told the school I was taking a 1 year leave from school.   This let me hold over everything.  I got a different job, which I worked for all of 2006 and half of 2007.   I made even more money (Like you said, about 30% more, almost inexplicably.)   In that time, I managed to quit WoW, for good.   In September of this year, I quit my job, only to join school again.   This time, without WoW.

It's funny how you mention Calculus, actually.  I failed calculus 1 3 times before passing it.  Then I failed Calculus 2 and Calculus 3 once each.   I've just got a bad history with the subject.

Now, I don't attribute everything about my screwing up to WoW.  I was just a weak person, highly prone to slacking off, and easily distracted, well before discovering WoW.  But it didn't help.   Now I think I'm a somewhat more focused person, just because I've seen the job world, and I've hit the "We can't hire you full time until you get a degree" brick wall twice.   It's not something I want to do particularly, but it's something I have to do.    But seeing you post something really similar to something I did in 2005, is pretty scary.  And knowing me then, if someone had told me to stop (and many people, most of all my mom, did)  then I wouldn't have.   It took me hitting rock bottom not once, but twice, to shape up.   And I'm still not the strongest student, but it has to be done.

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15

Re: Decisions, decisions...

I got a 3.5 GPA while playing WoW for about 5 hours a day. I should really quit.

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