1 Topic by Krall

  • Registered: 2002-12-22
  • Posts: 1,624

Topic: The Walrus and the Carpenter

I came across the Lewis Carrol poem and after watching Dogma I thought bringing this to MD would create some interesting discussions.  As I'm sure we've alll heard, Lewis Carrol was an avid drug user and supposedly his works are compeltely meaningless, and yet countless people have read his works and taken their own meanings from it.

Here is a link to the poem in its entirety:
http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/walrus.html

Here's a video from the Disney version of the poem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nql1_RKwQt0&feature=related

According to wikipedia, Lewis Carrol was an Angelican clergyman, so its unlikely he intended the poem to be an indictment of organized religion as Loki from Dogma suggests.  I can see how one could be led to believe the walrus represents Buddha and the carpenter represents Jesus, (covering both eastern and western religions) implying that reilgion of any kind will lead to ones own destruction.

Antoher interpretation is that the poem represents the class struggle between employers and workers.  This was written during the 19th century, around the time of Karl Marx's writings.  The walrus could represent the fatcats of business, who devours all of the oysters while the carpenter gets squat. 

I also snagged this interpretation from wikipedia:
Nevertheless, there are many interpretations of the poem, whether it be in politics, religion, or business. An example of such modern reinterpretation and argument by analogy is a recent article by the Socialist writer Richard Greeman, who holds that Carroll intended to satirise the inter-imperialist rivalries and wild grab of colonies and resources going on at the time of writing, with the Walrus being the British Empire and the Carpenter ? France. Greeman then proceeds into the present, blaming the rivalry and war by proxy between "The Walrus Bush" and "The Carpenter Chirac" for bloody African civil wars, specifically the Rwanda genocide. Bush is mentioned as having invaded Iraq in order to "devour Iraq's oyster reserves ? I mean oil reserves."

Anyway I thought this was interesting enough to share and possibly get opinions from people on their reactions and/or interpreations as well.

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  • Registered: 2002-06-16
  • Posts: 8,855

Re: The Walrus and the Carpenter

I'll never understand why people have to take a nice poem and start ruining it by inventing a bunch of hidden meanings. I find the poem itself very enjoyable, but most of these interpretations are simply absurd, and the others which aren't... well, I still prefer to just enjoy the poem as it is.
Of course, that doesn't mean that I agree with "supposedly his works are completely meaningless". I think it's offensive to refer to something as "meaningless" just because it has no deeper levels of metaphors and analogies. But a good piece of literature/ poetry can still be good without having weird interpretations.
There's nothing wrong with seeing some logic between the lines and using it to get to an enlightening conclusion about the whole world... as long as it's on a personal level. It might be crystal clear to me that Carrol's poem The Hunting of the Snark is, in fact, a well hidden metaphor that implies that every male citizen of France between the ages of 15 and 23 needs to be shot, but... well, many interpretations of his writings sound as silly to me as this sounded to you, and, well, just keep in mind that out of a hundred different interpretations for the same text, it's quite likely that most people misinterpreted the author's intended meaning tongue

"Start at the beginning, and go on until you reach the end, then stop".
This line was said by a character written by a drugged pedophile (I didn't know about the drugs part until this thread, actually), but I still think many people would do well to learn from it smile

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3 Reply by Krall

  • Registered: 2002-12-22
  • Posts: 1,624

Re: The Walrus and the Carpenter

Originally posted by: Sir~Magis~Returns
Of course, that doesn't mean that I agree with "supposedly his works are completely meaningless". I think it's offensive to refer to something as "meaningless" just because it has no deeper levels of metaphors and analogies. But a good piece of literature/ poetry can still be good without having weird interpretations.

Poor choice of words on my part.  All I intended to say was what you just said, there are no hidden deeper meanings. Still, his words seem so odd, that I feel like there has to be some other meaning.

Even on the literal level, there must be some moral to it.  Like "listen to your parents," or, "beware of charismatic strangers."  I guess you can take at least that much from it.

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  • Registered: 2002-06-16
  • Posts: 8,855

Re: The Walrus and the Carpenter

Originally posted by: Krall

Originally posted by: Sir~Magis~Returns
Of course, that doesn't mean that I agree with "supposedly his works are completely meaningless". I think it's offensive to refer to something as "meaningless" just because it has no deeper levels of metaphors and analogies. But a good piece of literature/ poetry can still be good without having weird interpretations.

Poor choice of words on my part.  All I intended to say was what you just said, there are no hidden deeper meanings. Still, his words seem so odd, that I feel like there has to be some other meaning.


Humour is sacred. There needn't be a higher meaning than humour.

Even on the literal level, there must be some moral to it.  Like "listen to your parents," or, "beware of charismatic strangers."


Must there? Really? What on God's green earth could possibly make you think that?
The other day this religious guy I work with explained to me that the Old Testament was dictated to man directly by God, which is why it's so full of truth and wisdom that have yet to be found, and why every single word contains hidden meanings, and I was all outraged about how nobody believes me when I claim the same thing about LotR.
I think we can agree, however, that The Walrus and the Carpenter was not given to us mortals by any divine entity in particular, and therefore there is no possible reason (even for those with strong faith) to suspect that it contains hidden morals, hints of the future, or stock tips.
Seriously.
It's just a poem.

I don't suppose you think You are old, father William has anything hidden in it?

"You are old, father William," the young man said,
   "And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head--
   Do you think, at your age, it is right?"

"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
   "I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
   Why, I do it again and again."

Humour, mate, is what it's all about. Nothing hidden. Don't be a conspiracy nut smile

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5 Reply by Dany

  • Dany
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  • Registered: 2003-07-17
  • Posts: 4,625

Re: The Walrus and the Carpenter

Originally posted by: Sir~Magis~Returns
therefore there is no possible reason (even for those with strong faith) to suspect that it contains hidden morals, hints of the future, or stock tips.

There's also no reason to assume it doesn't have a meaning to it. Given how long writers tend to spend writing poems and stories, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they think about various meanings they can put into it, or things they could put across. I don't imagine you think Shakespeare plays don't have hidden meaning, so there's no reason to assume that this poem doesn't either. As to the poem you posted, while admittedly it seems pretty simplistic, there's no reason to assume that there's nothing else there either.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that sometimes people may read into poems things that weren't intentional - but equally so, there are probably some things which are. Since none of us (presumably) are the ones who wrote it, it's actually less important what the original meaning was, it's more about how we chose to interpret it and how we enjoy it, as you said. And while you enjoy this poem on a purely literal level, you yourself said it was your own personal opinion and enjoyment of it. Equally so, other people are free to take away whatever meaning they want from the poem as long as it appeals to them.

  • Registered: 2002-06-16
  • Posts: 8,855

Re: The Walrus and the Carpenter

It's just the use of the word "must" that I find unfitting.
It could have hidden meanings. It might have hidden meanings. But even if it actually does, in fact, have several intricate sub-levels of hidden messages, I would still think it's wrong to assume that it "must" have them. Because plenty of artistic works simply don't, especially the humouristic ones.

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  • Registered: 2003-01-23
  • Posts: 862

Re: The Walrus and the Carpenter

Originally posted by: Dany

Originally posted by: Sir~Magis~Returns
therefore there is no possible reason (even for those with strong faith) to suspect that it contains hidden morals, hints of the future, or stock tips.

There's also no reason to assume it doesn't have a meaning to it. Given how long writers tend to spend writing poems and stories, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they think about various meanings they can put into it, or things they could put across. I don't imagine you think Shakespeare plays don't have hidden meaning, so there's no reason to assume that this poem doesn't either. As to the poem you posted, while admittedly it seems pretty simplistic, there's no reason to assume that there's nothing else there either.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that sometimes people may read into poems things that weren't intentional - but equally so, there are probably some things which are. Since none of us (presumably) are the ones who wrote it, it's actually less important what the original meaning was, it's more about how we chose to interpret it and how we enjoy it, as you said. And while you enjoy this poem on a purely literal level, you yourself said it was your own personal opinion and enjoyment of it. Equally so, other people are free to take away whatever meaning they want from the poem as long as it appeals to them.

Very well put, I agree completely. There are a lot of interesting ideas out there about how much what was intended by the author actually matters. I think it's exciting to look at the ways in which a piece can separate itself from its origins. ^^

Your entrance is ever a segue to endless lands of derision. ^_^

8 Reply by Krall

  • Registered: 2002-12-22
  • Posts: 1,624

Re: The Walrus and the Carpenter

I said "must" because most stories fit this formula.  I could say "a story must have a beginning, middle, and end," and you could argue with this statement.  A story could be written that did not have all of these attributes, but in the interests of following convention and having an aesthetically pleasing work, you generally follow the conventiional rules.

Now you did also say "Humour is sacred. There needn't be a higher meaning than humour" and in fact I agree with this statement.  However, I don't find the poem all that funny.  I fail to even see how some parts could have been intended to be funny.  Thought provoking- yes, funny- no.  Conventionally, a short story with a tragic ending exists because it has a moral.  Hence my use of the word "must."

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