Theory about why American education fails (Page 2 of 3)

I think it is a bit unrealistic to say that its the job of parents to police the quality of teachers in their schools. I think that is why they have administrators in those schools.

Tenure IS a bad thing. It enables teachers to slack off. Tenure is at best a band-aid over a larger problem. If there is a problem with teachers being fired because they make more than some new graduate, that is more of a statement on the problems at large with the school system. A more experienced teacher would, presumably, be better at their job. If parents had the ability to choose what school they want to send their children to, teachers would have to perform better. Tenure wouldn't be an issue because a school district wouldn't want to fire a good teacher with experience for a newbie that is untested. Good teachers would be rewarded, and bad teachers would lose their jobs. It is already hard to fire a teacher that is bad at their job. When you add in tenure it is nearly impossible. That video I posted above talks about this. In NY city there is a building called "the rubber room" where they send teachers to sit around all day when the school district has decided that it is unsafe to have the teacher around students. It is so hard to fire these teachers that they have a building DEDICATED to teachers who they can't fire, but the teachers are so bad at their job that it would be unsafe to have them in a classroom. They couldn't fire a teacher who was sending sexually explicit emails to his underage student.

All the complaining about how poorly teachers are paid is ridiculous. The average salary for a teacher is $47,000 and teachers don't work all summer and get huge breaks during winter and spring. However, I do think that schools should pay the student loans off for their teachers if they aren't going to compensate them better. Of course, that issue could be solved if the gov't paid for high school graduates to go to college like many european countries do.

Administrators for the every day policing, of course. But if your dealing with any of the numbers or very bad examples quoted in this thread, a parent should step in. It's the whole point of the scholl board being elected and made up of parents from the district... Granted, it's a major political thing and there's nightmare stories of flat corruption that can happen there, but there's always bad things everywhere.

Let me be clear... eliminating tenure is a bad thing. I wouldn't be opposed to revamping the system to make it better for all involved. Without some type of tenure and the union protection, there would be all sorts of issues.... and frankly you should be honest about using NYC as an example for teachers - there are districts in NYC that could drive the most sane person crazy. They have major issues with students in many city schools.

In addition, there are places where parents do have a choice of what school to send their kids... My Sister-in-law moved down to Charlotte, NC several years ago. She can send her kids anywhere in a very broad range of an area... Down there this just led to segregation with certain schools filling up with Blacks and others filling up with Whites. The city is trying to figure out how to best combat the issue. A choice for the parents is not a silver bullet.

They work less than 200 days out of a year... they get the best of the best health/dental/etc/etc benefits. About $40k straight out of college (starting salary in most good districts here) with the opportunity to supplement that income with seasonal jobs? You're not going to convince me they're getting screwed and the fact that people line up in droves for a single job isn't helping your case. I do understand that this may not be the case in places that don't have the affluence of Long Island. In those places there's probably a very good case that teachers are underpaid - but without the property taxes to fund the salaries there isn't an easy answer.

I was siding with you on that one bud.

If you want to live in rural Illinois that would be your problem. If you are living in a town of 200 people obviously you are going to be limited in choices in a lot of areas.

I believe NCLB made it so that anywhere in the country you can pick where to send your students if the zoned school is a poor performing school. In any event, I could see how letting parents pick can lead to schools ending up segregated. Especially when you talk about large cities that have areas with large populations of poor minorities. The white families with money will send their kids to the nicer school because they can afford to drive them or pay a taxi. The poorer minorities will just go to the zoned school because they can't afford to arrange transportation. Letting parents choose their school isn't the only thing that needs to be done to fix schools, but it is a decent start.

If you truly believe that teachers only work 200 days out of the year, then you're either incredibly mistaken or the teachers in the US are significantly better off then their counterparts in many, many countries around the world. There's a huge amount of planning, marking, and even little things that are taken home or done after hours or in holidays. Here's a great example - it took me two hours just to frame a classes artwork with coloured borders, name them, and put them up on the wall for display. That was about four hours of work in class to make the artwork, and it took me an additional two just to display - that's not even checking if they met the criteria and formally marking anything.

There's a lot more work to teaching then just being at the school from 9 - 3.

Teachers work a 6.5 hour work day and get spring break, summer, and christmas off. They also get basically every holiday on the books off, plus a few school only holidays and half days. Even if they grade assignments at home on their own time they are still working at most the amount of hours someone with a regular job works, and part of that work day is spent at home with the TV on. Even still, a lot of employees working other jobs still have to bring home work. Teachers get paid on par with most other jobs that require only a bachelors degree, and yet they work far fewer days a year and a few hours less a day and receive benefits that are far better than what an average employee elsewhere would get. Not to mention that they have better job security than virtually any other profession in existence.

If you can handle being around kids all day, being a teacher is a pretty damn good profession.

Honestly, I can't believe you actually think this. Being a teacher isn't something you switch off when you get home, you end up thinking about the class a lot. On average, a teacher would likely be at school at least an hour before it starts, until an hour after it finishes. That's 8 hours there, and although it's not every night, there's often marking on top of that. Plus, I can tell you at least here it's a legal requirement to keep lesson plans and unit plans for review by the government, so that takes another hefty chunk of time planning units and days. Then, like Legal pointed out, there's a lot of organization factors that come into play too.

It's not a requirement but most teachers spend a lot of time making their classroom look good, doing minor presentation things like framing artwork that takes hours to do, even little things like writing a nice comment and checking work and putting a sticker in it takes a ridiculous amount of time when you have to do it for 20 students (incidently the US average for primary school is 14.2 : 1).

Have you heard of loco parentis? I've probably made a spelling mistake there, but it means in place of the parents. Being a teacher places you as a legal guardian of anywhere up to 30 children for the duration of the day. Anything happens to them, and it's your problem. I'd presume the legality is pretty similar in the states. And for this, you get $28681US (that's the second highest in the world, congratulations US) as a starting primary teacher. The average primary pay in New York is around $39370. Personally, here, I'll be starting at around $26k US.

I have to say it's actually pretty offensive how little you imply teachers do. There's a hell of a lot of thinking, planning, answering questions, marking, and hundreds of little challenges and difficulties that belong to this profession alone. Again, here it's actually a legal requirement of teaching that you have to turn up to school every day unless you're really sick. You can't throw a sick day, or use a few weeks vacation to go on holiday somewhere.  Actually, I'm incredibly offended by your impression of how little teachers do. You really do have a shallow view of the education system as a whole, and before you keep making judgements on the time invested into it, I'd really suggest getting to know a few teachers and seeing how much work there is involved.

And Legal - I'm actually scanning information about the US education system regarding this thread. Part of my degree involves examining New Zealands Education System in relation to various other countries, so I've at least got a pretty good idea of relevant conditions worldwide. I can tell you that NZ and the US spend approximately the same % of GDP per person on education (21.6% for the US, 19.2% for NZ) but our students have an average school life of 14.6 years to your 11.6 - so a lot more money goes into your education system.
Oh, and of course The United States capita per person:    43,444, compared to NZ: 25,531. So your $ => % is almost twice as high.

I can state from the graph I have (that I'm still looking for an online version of =\ ) which compares an education systems achievement (the higher marks) to it's disparity (the difference between high and low marks) that NZ has a higher achievement level, and a similar disparity (I think we're slightly worse, but in a roughly similar spot). So for less money, we're getting better education for longer. There's definitely something not working within the US Education System - and with the prevelant attitudes it's not really suprising. One great example I saw was earlier in this thread, KoNY commented that living in a rural town gives you no choice, and that's too bad. The education system should provide for equal opportunity at achievement everywhere, regardless of whether it's in the middle of NY or the middle of Illinois.

But my rambling defence of the teaching profession aside for a moment, a huge part of any debate regarding education is going to come down to the concepts of equal opportunity vs equity, and in general your position on that is going to come down to a political preference. Equal Opportunity is the concept that every child deserves the chance at the same level education, and it's what they put into it that dictates the results. Equity is the concept that everyone should get the same level education, and as such more assistance should be provided for those who need more h elp to achieve the same level of success. It's a difficult argument on either side, and it really affects how you view any education system.

I think you misunderstand what I said regarding rural schools as well. My point isn't that you should be able to make a choice, it's that you shouldn't have to make a choice to guarantee an equal level of education.

I'm not going to continue to discuss this with you while you continue to insult my career path and overglorify the benefits, though. You're talking complete and utter crap regarding the hours teachers are expected to work, and it's flat out insulting.

This is fucking bullshit, and completely insulting. I don't think you quite understand how belittling it is to have someone stand there and tell you that you have ridiculous amounts of time off for more pay. Once I'm an NZ registered teacher, in 8 years I'll be earning 40k US. That's as high as it gets. I've never said it's badly paid - but it's not exactly paid super well, either. The holidays are slightly more then most jobs, but no where near as large as you're insinuating. Most jobs don't end when you leave, but few of them require taking on the role of a parent for so many people.

Grading assignments a couple of days a week? You don't have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about with regards to this profession, and I'm irritated beyond belief at your uninformed drivel regarding it. If it's so fucking easy and cruisy, give it a go. You won't last a fucking day.

Again, take your uninformed head out of your ass and go talk to someone in the profession. They won't spend even half that time doing nothing - there's a shit load of planning, setting up class rooms, professional development, meetings regarding curriculum focus and direction, and other such jobs. Furthermore, let's get technical, shall we? How long a day do other professions get for lunch breaks? Teachers are still in charge of and responsible for their pupils the entire duration the schools are open. Duty often takes up several lunchtimes a week, and many of those that aren't are spent planning, marking, or presenting. So hey, over the course of approximately 200 school days, there's another 200 hours of work. That's another what, 5 weeks worth of work?

Incidently, the difference between our education systems is becoming more and more in my eyes clearly related to the attitude of people regarding them. You see your education system as shit, and deem the teachers lazy and considering your last comparison to your stepfather, clearly not worth the money they're paid.  Furthermore, the onus seems to be placed on the education system itself - there's a shitload of support and interaction that needs to occur in the mesosystem too (that's the connections between home and school). If you're so clearly better then the teachers, that attitude is going to entirely fuck with any respect necessary in order to actually teach.

Fine. I get it. Teachers are paid more then enough for what they do, and they do fuck all because they're always on holiday. Clearly then, any further debate with myself, one of these lesser beings, would be a waste of time, so I'll spare you the effort.

The thing you're missing there - and part of the overall problem being discussed in the thread - is that yes, they get fairly compensated for doing the minimum amount of work possible to put forward some semblance of a class. Teachers who go above and beyond that, though, don't get any more money, but they have to do many times the amount of work.

I'll give you an example from my school: There are two English teachers with rooms right next to each other. One of them is regarded as an easy teacher. His classes are all blowoffs. You can pretend to read the books he assigns, then pass all the jokes of quizzes with cliffnotes. You really have to try to fail those classes, and it's pretty obvious that he doesn't do a whole lot of work seeing as he uses the same lesson plan every year and he only has a handful of non multiple-choice assignments.

The other teacher has short writing assignments due every week, and puts an emphasis on improving different skills each time. Her assignments actually require some insight into the subject, and she takes the time to read, correct, and comment on every paper. She's involved enough that a lot of students trust her. She ends up proofreading and commenting on something like fifty kids' college essays every year. She also writes recommendations for all of these kids. She doesn't get payed extra for any of this, and it's all on her own time.

Now, they're both hired for the same position, and they both came to the district at about the same time. They get paid around the same amount, and teacher #2 probably does a few times the amount of work teacher #1 does. Which one of them is them being fairly compensated?

Don't think I fully agree with anybody's posts so far except for Legaia's recent one

I think the point that KoNY is getting at whether he realizes it or not would be better described as that in the US it is too easy for a teacher to blow off their job, screw up our youth and still get paid relatively well for the amount of work they are (not) doing.  While I wouldn't say it is common for somebody to become a teacher with the intention of slacking, it is certainly possible.

On the other hand I think KoNY is basing most of what he says on personal experiance which can be very misleading.  I am guessing he went to one of America's shitty public schools barely allowed to stay open every year, while teachers like my step-mom who worked at an on-par school system are probably under-appreciated.  I am not sure if I can call her underpaid as I know she was doing decently money-wise later in her career, but I didn't know her early on so it is likely that like many teachers she started off with shit for money, especially when you consider the amount of student loans and effort required to get the job in the first place.  KoNY I don't know about you but I have a friend who's mom worked a long time at a relatively decent job but went back to get her Master's in hopes of getting a better job in the hospital she worked at.  Even if, for the sake of argument, we assume she makes exactly as much as my stepmom did with her master's once she got it, she has still profited more.  Not only that, but my dad who has also recently retired, easily made more money than my stepmom, and he doesn't have a Masters.  He had much more common type of desk/corporate job. 

If the world were just and fair place, one would think somebody with a Masters degree (two even I believe) who is directly entrusted with the future of our youth (and does a great job) should be compensated more than my dad who had an office job directing shipping for a tractor company.  Not that his job is insignificant at all, (capitalist society and all) but you should get my point.

KoNY, I also get the impression you don't have a good idea of how much work a (good) teacher does in a decent, not even good, but decent school system. 

And Dany, like I said earlier you have to keep in mind you are in NZ and we are talking about the US.  The US has a whole other set of underlying social issues.  Part of the reason that we have "bad" school systems and "lazy" teachers is that the kids are going to a babysitter all day, their parents are not sending them to school.  I think it is no coincidence that my stepmom taught at a decent school system where the kids weren't all a bunch of mutants, there is actually a significant percentage of parents who give a damn, and the school system can actually punish kids who fuck around.  Most teachers in shitty school systems simply discover they don't have the willpower or strength to have to deal with a bunch of kids with parents that want them not only babysit, but RAISED.  Many parents don't discipline their children here in the US, they expect teachers to do that for them, that is what they want out of our education system.  Except what ends up happening is that teachers have to deal with a class full of kids with no accountability where it is extremely painful if not entirely futile to try and teach them anything meaningfull, and of course apathy sets in. 

I have talked to my stepmom about what it is was like in my school, and she is horrified every single time I tell her about it.  I haven't taken my Constitution test since the 8th!!!  grade, and I am working on my Bachelor's atm.  Only 1  (one!!!) of the literature required by the state was actually assigned to me in the entire length of my high school career.  Why?  I believe it is because the place was a damn zoo.  How are you supposed to teach kids who's parents largely do not care beyond them being babysit at school, in an extremely flawed educational system?  Kids that were disrupting the classroom could be sent out of the classroom, and not even be sent home that day and be ready to go to their very next class.  Not that the parents would likely care anyway, so there is no accountability at all for the children.  I have seen and heard more of parents who were actually mad at the school for the school wanting to suspend them for fucking up the classroom.  "Where is my kid supposed to go all day when I am at work???"

Sometimes my stepmom would get a transfer student from my school district if their parents moved or whatever, and she would be completely horrified and lost as to what to do with this mutant, though at least at her school she can kick him out and the dean or whoever would actually follow through with punishment.  But she was upset because it isn't her job to discipline the kid, it is to teach him.

It should be no secret.  At my high school (a shitty one) you could look and see how much more enthusiastic the younger teachers were about their job, while all the older teachers had pretty much been burned out.  Teachers are worn down.  And that, in a nutshell, is part of the problem with being a public school teacher in the US.  Not that that necessarily makes it right for a teacher to stop caring and become apathetic, but can you honestly blame them?

But over-all, I do think that teachers that are in decent school systems who do a good job teaching are underappreciated, at the least.  (you can tell just by looking at this thread)

Assumptions that all teachers do in their holidays is sip booze and hang around by the pool and laugh at the short hours they work is pretty much a universal issue. Keep in mind again - I'm literally studying comparisons between the education systems of various countries. I'm not sitting on this one completely uninformed.