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Blizzpub » Mature Discussion » The Catholic Church did something really awesome
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26747166/
They now support evolution, specifically the stance of theistic evolution, which is not creationism or intelligent design, and views Genesis as an allegory and not as a scientific text.
<3
Grats to the Catholic church for finally catching up to any christian with half a brain.
The sad thing is I know this won't do anything to affect how much the people here love to bash Christianity and religion in general. Yay!
OMG THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS CHERRY PICKING THEIR OWN HOLY TEXT!!! SHITBALLS!!!!
Last edited by Killgore9998 (2008-09-17 21:01)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26747166/
They now support evolution, specifically the stance of theistic evolution, which is not creationism or intelligent design, and views Genesis as an allegory and not as a scientific text.
<3
Not a bad move, really should have been a no-brainer in the first place though. What is it about science that seems to scare religious organizations so much? I realize some people choose to use evolution as a way to express their atheist belief, but science isn't exactly out there claiming that evolution proves the lack of existence of a god. =[
Catholics though aren't the ones people should be concerned with these days, it's those hard-lined Protestants with their ridiculously literal translations of the bible that freak me out. Of all the churches i've attended (though admittedly not THAT many) that one was the creepiest. everything said in there they take literally, and refuse to believe anything but.
Grats to the Catholics, now hopefully us Protestants can follow suit in the "wow, this stuff actually makes sense" boat.
The catholic church adapts and evolves.
Last edited by Errrrrrr (2008-09-17 23:30)
Me being raised Catholic, this question came up a lot in bible study classes. Most of the priests that were asked the questions told us basically the same thing. It's just now officially the church as a whole have the same views as many of these priests I've talked to (including the couple I have in the family).
Glad to hear all of the positive things about the Catholic Church from you guys, that they actually teach coherent stuff right down to their schools you guys are talking about.
All together this really does a lot to salvage my views on the Catholics. It used to be (a longish time ago) that I didnt like them because I thought they were responsible for most of the things I saw as important that made people hate religion (such as the services that looked more like people were mourning their faith instead of celebrating it, and I always thought the idea of a Pope was kind of silly, whats the deal with the confessional booth), however I have changed a lot since then. In some of my classes I heard about some of the other views of the Catholic Church that I either liked or even if I didn't ultimately agree with them at least they were coherent respectable views. Now that they have accepted evolution I think that is taking a huge step in the right direction and between this and the things I just mentioned, makes the Catholic Church very decent relative to many if not all other churches in my eyes. That, and I have come to discover many other things that religious folk do that are waaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of anything the Catholic Church has done lately to destroy religion's image, so the things I disliked about them now seem to be insignificant.
I'd have to do some more thinking about it, but I am starting to think that if I were to commit myself to any specific denomination of Christianity (not that I believe there is any reason to do so, but its a hypothetical question) I would at least strongly consider the Catholic Church...which is something I never thought I would find myself saying, but things change I guess.
Yeah and discussing how you are bias against religion is really "mature".
You are doing it wrong. If you are going to troll, it has to at least make sense to strike a nerve with me. Better luck next time.
Last edited by Legal_My_Deagle (2008-09-18 00:57)
Glad to hear all of the positive things about the Catholic Church from you guys, that they actually teach coherent stuff right down to their schools you guys are talking about.
All together this really does a lot to salvage my views on the Catholics. It used to be (a longish time ago) that I didnt like them because I thought they were responsible for most of the things I saw as important that made people hate religion (such as the services that looked more like people were mourning their faith instead of celebrating it, and I always thought the idea of a Pope was kind of silly, whats the deal with the confessional booth), however I have changed a lot since then. In some of my classes I heard about some of the other views of the Catholic Church that I either liked or even if I didn't ultimately agree with them at least they were coherent respectable views. Now that they have accepted evolution I think that is taking a huge step in the right direction and between this and the things I just mentioned, makes the Catholic Church very decent relative to many if not all other churches in my eyes.
Well the Catholic church has not always been progressive, and certainly has been a motivator for a lot of anti-progressive thinking as well in the past. There was that whole Galileo thing, among many others. Also, it wasn't until 1962 that we were allowed to have Catholic mass in languages other than Latin. I'd say since the 60's though, the church has been fairly progressive, mostly thanks to the last three popes. But then, like any organized religion, there will always be sects of it who are extreme to one end or another.
Having gone through catechism classes and such myself, my experiences were pretty similar to Kenshin, in that religion and modern views weren't really put at odds. Most of the priests I've spent time talking with are generally pretty cool people and aren't looking to evangelize people against evolution or science. I can only hope that when they move on up through the hierarchy and get older, that they keep the same open views that they have now.
Ya if you want to go back before our lifetimes the Catholic Church has done a lot of terrible things actually, but really nobody running the church now was alive or had any living relatives back then. (excepting, I guess, the Latin deal you quoted from 1962...but at least they changed that then) The institution still did it, but how long should we stay mad about it? For me at least, the answer is "less than I am upset at all these crazy fundy protestant groups". Although obviously not nearly every Protestant church is crazy, but all I meant was that if I had to pick a church at least I would know the Catholics were not really too nuts. I guess thats the benefit of bothering to have "official church policy", you know what you are getting.
Last edited by Legal_My_Deagle (2008-09-18 11:41)
What is it about science that seems to scare religious organizations so much? I realize some people choose to use evolution as a way to express their atheist belief, but science isn't exactly out there claiming that evolution proves the lack of existence of a god. =[
I really don't think that it actually does. Think about where you might have gotten that impression from. The media? The outspoken leaders of the intelligent design/creationism movements? These are people who are self-interested in stirring up controversy (the former) or are idiots who believe that they speak on behalf of religious organizations when they really don't (the latter).
It's never been a problem or a question for myself, or any other religious person, or anyone associated with any churches that I've ever been to. Evolution was always a no-brainer, as well as the idea that only fools take every story they hear word-for-word literally, and that goes for genesis as well.
The reason why the catholic church is only now catching up isn't because they're scared of science but rather because they have a duty to uphold certain tenants of dogma. Being an authority on Christianity, they have a lot of peoples' spirituality at stake when they commit to a decision. So it isn't something you do lightly. And there wasn't really ever any harm in holding off on making a statement until recently when people started fighting about it.
Edit:
I'd have to do some more thinking about it, but I am starting to think that if I were to commit myself to any specific denomination of Christianity (not that I believe there is any reason to do so, but its a hypothetical question) I would at least strongly consider the Catholic Church...which is something I never thought I would find myself saying, but things change I guess.
You might be happier with the Episcopal church, which is what I belong to. They're probably as liberal as you can get when it comes to Christianity, but they're still rock solid on all the really important stuff, which is why I like it. Freeing people up to explore their faith with questions rather than declarations helps to make it more your own.. and when you need advice or friendship, it is much more genuinely and freely given. There is also frankly more room for mistakes.
It's a branch of the Protestant church, but not one of those crazy ones that you are referring to.
Also, everyone should see my sig for my feelings on how religion has to adapt and change like this in order to survive. In other words, I called it, yo.
Last edited by Killgore9998 (2008-09-18 14:09)
Ya I really like your sig. William James if I am not mistaken? That speech was one of my favorites I have read so far in philosophy, it is very close to my views except I am not a fideist. I may be completely off though, there were all kinds of essays on that subject and lots of people since then I am sure have borrowed phrases and ideas from it or whatnot. At any rate it reminds me of James.
But anyway I still don't know if I will ever go to church. I would have to find one where the priests/pastors/speakers/whatever really inspired me or otherwise impressed me, but especially as an aspiring philosopher it really is difficult to listen to much of the stuff they talk about at church, since it is usually so ridden with fallacy. BUT, I really haven't been to that many different kinds of churches, I haven't really shopped around so to speak. I have only ever been to like a Lutheran, Methodist, and another protestant church where I can't remember the name of the denomination. So I am probably just making too much of a hasty generalization. Like I said, most things I have heard about the Catholic church are at least coherent views you could at least defend with reason (even if I don't always ultimately agree with them I respect them) and I have no reason to think that there aren't any other churches that I could respect similarly. They probably just aren't common.
The other thing is usually the church crowds are way too uptight, I don't really fit in at all. I have no fuckin clue what I would do if I had kids, because I would want to find a compromise between raising them aware of God and the church and whatnot, but I don't really want to like force them to believe anything...and from my experience a lot of people's faith is destroyed because one day they realize the specific interpretation of Christianity they have heard about their whole lives from a church is hugely flawed, and don't realize that there is any other alternative so they drop the belief in God all together. Like, they feel like they have to believe in a God that is a bastard or no God at all. So they either start hating God or lose faith all together because the church offers no awareness of alternate interpretations. Can't say I blame them either.
Personally I am currently what is called an agnostic theist, and I have severe doubts I will ever find a church that is to my complete satisfaction. 
Last edited by Legal_My_Deagle (2008-09-18 17:10)
The quote is by John Milton actually ^_^
But anyway I still don't know if I will ever go to church. I would have to find one where the priests/pastors/speakers/whatever really inspired me or otherwise impressed me, but especially as an aspiring philosopher it really is difficult to listen to much of the stuff they talk about at church, since it is usually so ridden with fallacy. BUT, I really haven't been to that many different kinds of churches, I haven't really shopped around so to speak. I have only ever been to like a Lutheran, Methodist, and another protestant church where I can't remember the name of the denomination. So I am probably just making too much of a hasty generalization. Like I said, most things I have heard about the Catholic church are at least coherent views you could at least defend with reason (even if I don't always ultimately agree with them I respect them) and I have no reason to think that there aren't any other churches that I could respect similarly. They probably just aren't common.
Church is not for everyone, I would say. If you're like me though, there are times when you just feel a little bit stressed out by everything, and shit generally seems pretty tough. It helps to get up early on a weekend day (instead of pissing it all away by sleeping super late like I usually do), going to church, and picking up some breakfast on the way home (like a really good breakfast with a stack of pancakes and eggs and bacon, way better than no breakfast or a handful of golden grahams). You go for the lesson of the day. The ceremony and hymns and stuff are just to help get you in the mood, sorta, to hear some good words and help you feel inspired. It's important to have a nice church to go to, also, with a loyal congregation.
It just helps. Even if the lesson doesn't really have anything to do with what's troubling you, its nice to hear something supportive rather than the kind of negative bullshit you get every time you turn on the TV. And if you really really need someone to talk to, then you can ask one of the priests or whatever for a time when he or she might be able to talk. You meet them, get to know them a bit, and before long it's pretty easy to feel comfortable talking about your problem. They can give you good advice with a totally objective point of view. I've never needed to do that yet, thank God, but I would if I was in a crisis.
I agree with you that you probably won't get much out of it if you're examining everything they say with a fine tooth comb for unsupported statements or technical flaws. Sometimes I end up feeling that way. And yeah, sometimes you get a guy who totally sucks. In fact the head priest at my church usually forgets what he's talking about halfway through and bullshits the rest. It sucks when he's the guy doing the lesson, but everyone else is good. Once you start feeling like you can trust them, it's easy to see the meaning in what they're talking about, and its easy to take from it what you need. I'm not trying to describe some kind of creepy groupthink bullshit here, but.. you're not going to a biology professor's lecture. It's like you're going to group therapy. And you wouldn't get much out of therapy if you challenged every single thing the therapist said before you gave yourself a chance to think about it, would you?
The other thing is usually the church crowds are way too uptight, I don't really fit in at all. I have no fuckin clue what I would do if I had kids, because I would want to find a compromise between raising them aware of God and the church and whatnot, but I don't really want to like force them to believe anything...and from my experience a lot of people's faith is destroyed because one day they realize the specific interpretation of Christianity they have heard about their whole lives from a church is hugely flawed, and don't realize that there is any other alternative so they drop the belief in God all together. Like, they feel like they have to believe in a God that is a bastard or no God at all. So they either start hating God or lose faith all together because the church offers no awareness of alternate interpretations. Can't say I blame them either.
You could definitely call church crowds uptight, but there's a reason for that. They're all there because they're getting something spiritual out of the experience, and so they take it seriously. They feel inspired to treat each other with respect and kindness, so that they will get the same thing in return.
If you came with all your friends wearing punky clothes and sat in the middle of the chapel, yeah, you'll probably see the old white grandmothers getting nervous at first. But if you show the same respect and openness and kindness to other people, you'll get the same, guaranteed, regardless of what you look like or how you dress or anything like that. Everyone at church loves stories about people from totally different walks of life who come to join the congregation. It gets pretty stifling when you only have middle aged, middle class white people who go.
The best thing to do regarding both kids and yourself is to not try to force them or yourself to believe anything. Just make the information available, and let them decide if they're into it or not. Thats what my parents always did for me. You won't suddenly have your faith destroyed when you and you alone are the one who's been building it your whole life. And when your spiritual journey begins with looking for strength during a time of weakness, rather than just having someone say "say these things and do these things" then there isn't really even a possibility of losing faith.. because it's a part of you, not something you just 'picked up'. I think the first time I ever even picked up a bible was when I was crying and pissed off at something or other.. teenage angst maybe or even earlier than that, and I couldn't/didn't want to go to my parents about it. It just helped me make sense of things, and I was feeling much better before long. And honestly that's all that it's all about.
Last edited by Killgore9998 (2008-09-18 19:59)
Blizzpub » Mature Discussion » The Catholic Church did something really awesome
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